tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post964232788283069902..comments2023-05-14T11:07:55.762-04:00Comments on Doubting Thomist <br>Art & Faith: What I Saw in Haiti: Chapter 3Gregoryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03982931507445593579noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-42885272383098704372010-12-30T20:38:14.035-05:002010-12-30T20:38:14.035-05:00Kane, do you make it a rule to act like a pretenti...Kane, do you make it a rule to act like a pretentious ass toward anyone who disagrees with you on one of my blogs? Or only the ones with whom I happen to be very close personal friends?<br /><br />The fact is, I disagree with Joey. I do think my statement is a generally applicable rule. Any <i>mere</i> man who sets himself up, or is set up by others, as some sort of Messiah, is doomed to fail.<br /><br />If we look at the case of Jesus of Nazareth, if He was a mere man, then He was indeed a colossal failure as the Messiah. If, on the other hand, I am right in believing that He is God the Son, then even what was regarded by the world as His ultimate failure was actually the very source of triumph!<br /><br />As far as answering your question, that enormous task goes well outside the purview of the topic of this post, and I have no interest in taking it up here. I do agree with Joey that arguing about Jesus' identity on the basis of my comments about Wyclef Jean's bid for the Haitian presidency is pointless.<br /><br />As for humility and self-abnegation, they are two different things. Humility is indeed a "secure and realistic appraisal of the self." This does not negate self-denial, and self-denial is often a very good thing when stemming from such a secure and honest self-appraisal. It does not necessarily stem from self-deceit.<br /><br />In the case of Wyclef Jean, thinking that he has all the solutions to the many and varied problems of Haiti is indeed an arrogant opinion--or at best, incredibly naive. Neither quality would make an effective leader--even less a Messiah.<br /><br />In the case of Jesus, He did not act like a man who was deluded. He was well aware from the outset that His mission as the Messiah would lead to His Crucifixion. In fact, He planned on it. His ability to understand people, their needs and their responses to His claims, are telling indications that He was not somehow a pie-in-the-sky religious fanatic with delusions of grandeur. He saw the world for what it is, and still entered in to bring a message of love and hope, and the means to live it out.<br /><br />Neither was His self-abnegation a false humility. It stemmed entirely from the recognition of the need for sacrificial love for others. He knew the truth about Himself--His divine self--and yet He emptied Himself in order to come down to our level. If this isn't humility, then we've simply given that term an erroneous definition.<br /><br />As far as what I can offer to establish my conclusion, I give you the historical documents about Christ, particularly the Gospels. I offer His own words, and the miracles that He wrought. I offer that greatest of miracles, His resurrection. I offer the legacy He left us in His Church, and all that it has done in and for the world to bring His message and means of love and hope. I offer the continual and ongoing miraculous testimony that He gives us. I offer the testimony of my own experience.<br /><br />I have no more to give, even if that should be needed. In the end, I can simply rest in the hope that it's simply not up to me to convince you.<br /><br />In the end, Jesus alone of all of history's supposed messiahs, is the only one who actually <i>has</i> delivered His salvific ends. Has anyone else even come close?<br /><br />Merry Christmas<br />Gregory<br /><br />(By the way, Kane, as per the <a href="http://doubting-thomist.blogspot.com/2009/11/rules.html" rel="nofollow">Rules</a>, you've reached your three comment maximum. If you want to pursue this conversation, you can do so via email.)Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03982931507445593579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-5119650192288898152010-12-30T15:03:46.475-05:002010-12-30T15:03:46.475-05:00Hi Kane,
My inital point was that Jesus' clai...Hi Kane,<br /><br />My inital point was that Jesus' claim to Messiaship should be evaluated irrespective of any prejudice for or against messianic claims in general or of presuppositions about whether such claims are inherently doomed to failure. I think I was actually agreeing with your point that Jesus' claims should be evaluated on their merits and not on artificial mores, no matter how true and helpful the mores are. Every messianic claim should be evaluated by the same criteria, or none of them can be validly endorsed.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08607757758729045273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-24454303936158925022010-12-30T11:15:53.520-05:002010-12-30T11:15:53.520-05:00Joey,
Affirming Gregory, and then throwing in you...Joey,<br /><br />Affirming Gregory, and then throwing in your own endorsement of the view he's already layed out does not answer the question.<br /><br />More, Jesus's claims are in no way "independent" of all the other people who have claimed messiaship throughout history unless you can somehow establish that Jesus was more than just another man claiming to the messiaship. He was either unique somehow, or he wasn't.<br /><br />Also, the kind of humility so often expressed within Christianity is not so much a secure and realistic appraisal of the self, so much as it is self-abnegation, which, in my opinion, is self-deceit, not humility. So was Jesus deluded, falsely humble, or truly humble? And how can you establish whatever your conclusion is in a way that pushes Jesus beyond the pale of every other person who claimed to be the messiah and has yet to deliver their salvific ends?<br /><br />Cheers!<br />KaneKane Augustushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06365182037573315451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-10540320672044483522010-12-29T20:05:13.209-05:002010-12-29T20:05:13.209-05:00Nothing does. It stands up on its own. Gregory&#...Nothing does. It stands up on its own. Gregory's poetic expression of the need for humility does not stand as a universal rule. It's a good principle. It's pointless to argue the identity of Jesus of Nazareth against this statement. Jesus' claims to Messiaship are completely independent of this assertion.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08607757758729045273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-8058596019786319482010-12-21T22:28:49.205-05:002010-12-21T22:28:49.205-05:00Jesus, according to Christians, is the god-man; a ...Jesus, according to Christians, is the god-man; a hypostatic union of full God and full man. For Muslims, he was a special man, a prophet of Allah. For religious Jews, he was a charismatic upstart. For some secularists, he was just a guy who said stuff, and claimed to be the messiah.<br /><br />In most cases, Jesus is a "mere man who bills himself, or gets billed as, the Messiah." It's not until one is a Christian that the criterion for failure (billing oneself, or being billed as the Messiah) suddenly meets an exception.<br /><br />This is the same thing that happens in all the extraordinary claims of all the world's religions, and everybody who is on the outside of such systems regards that kind of thinking as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading" rel="nofollow">special pleading</a>.<br /><br />What makes Jesus an exception above and beyond all other religion's claims? What makes his self-proclaimed messiaship less "doomed to failure" than any other special religious man's claims to the same?Kane Augustushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06365182037573315451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-20054047389024110092010-12-21T06:01:10.607-05:002010-12-21T06:01:10.607-05:00I'm certain that I have no idea to what you ar...I'm certain that I have no idea to what you are referring.Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03982931507445593579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7830690166845266655.post-32467066335464341892010-12-20T01:03:56.899-05:002010-12-20T01:03:56.899-05:00"Any mere man who bills himself, or gets bill...<b>"Any mere man who bills himself, or gets billed as, the Messiah is doomed to fail."</b><br /><br />Really? Welcome to the dark side. ;)Kane Augustushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06365182037573315451noreply@blogger.com